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Alright, so I'll start off by pointing out that this is -mostly- a shinigami issue, but not solely. Kido is one of the few examples of a character being able to dual cast techniques strong enough to require cooldowns, aside from specialized perks. Normally, for specialized perks, and since they're tier IV max, it's not that big an issue. Technically a person could fire -two ceros- back to back oh god no, how does anyone with any other specialized skill deal with that!?
Facetiousness out of the way, Kido raises an entirely different issue. The dual-incantation perk means a shinigami can prepare two kido of any rank and shoot them off at the same time. This is pretty neat, and pretty impressive if you have the time to set up. Get a tier VII shield and a tier VII nuke in a single action, if you spend a bit of time charging up beforehand? Hell yeah, I'll take that. But again, it's nothing that incredible or impossible to deal with. People with offensive and defensive techniques on their powers can pretty much do the same thing, and there's no real problem attached to that.
The problem is that for dual-incanting kido, there's no restriction on the type being used. Technically I could incant a rank 91 and 99 Hado, and then fire off two tier VII nukes one after the other. That's pretty impossible to counter, because you'll likely put yourself on cooldown just blocking the first, and you could -maybe- use a tier VI to block the second attack, if your skills were quite high. Then next post they incant a rank 85 and 90 and they're a step ahead because now you're stuck using a tier V and IV to block two tier VIs. That's pretty ridiculous, and pretty hard to come back from.
I understand the incantation mechanic of kido is meant to have a meaningful impact on it, and that it justifies certain laxness when it comes to what kido can and can't do. I won't go into a big discussion here as to whether or not incantations themselves are a significant drawback, or whether or not kido's benefits are high enough to be worth that hit. That's something we could discuss for a while. This is just asking how we'd deal with a circumstance of someone performing two actions within the same technique type, of the same mastery.
Hollow techniques and Reiryoku techniques kinda get a pass on this one, because their dual casting is literal dual casting; they charge and fire off two ceros at the same exact time, pretty much. It's easy to understand how that would work, from a logical standpoint. There's even rules for determining how cooldowns work when you're using a technique to fire two attacks that both do tier IV damage; I believe the technique guide states each use of a tier IV would increase the cooldown by one post, so they could dual-cast tier IVs every 2 posts.
Dual-incanting however quite clearly states that they happen in sequence. One, and then the other. Would this mean cooldowns apply -immediately- after the first is fired, even if the second was already prepared? Would it get its power reduced as if it were unincanted? Would it fizzle entirely and do nothing? Would the player get smote by Yamamoto for even trying? Would they suddenly incur a whopping eight post cooldown on their tier VIIs, or something of that sort?
The rules don't seem to account for a circumstance where someone does that at all. Because of how the incanting system works, it -seems- possible to prepare two tier VII attacks and launch them both in the cooldown window. But as I said above, this flies in the face of all logic and balance.
So while we're here, let's just bring up the question for all races in general:
How does the dual-casting mechanic work with techniques that have cooldowns?
Post by Kuchiki Byakuya on Feb 17, 2016 12:44:04 GMT
How do you counter two tier 7's that both require a rather significant time to cast? Hit them while they're talking. It's literally the easiest thing in the world to do, if someone is sitting there chanting and they're a shinigami 10/10 times they're up to something. If you let them get off a dual incant for two tier 7's, in my honest opinion, that's your fault not the systems. Kido in itself is supposed to be something that can be on par, if not surpass, bankai itself if done correctly. Look at Tessai for example, the strongest Kido user in all of bleach. Point is; if you let them get off those two tier 7's that's your fault nothing and nobody elses.
I'm inclined to agree with Odd here. Is it powerful? yes. But unlike in the canon, where incantations almost always go off without a hitch while the opponent sits there like its a turn based strategy game, on the site combat is much faster. Incantations are already a pain, but two at once means you're a sitting duck for your opponent, stepping and a sword in the back doesn't require a lengthy incantation after all.
*On cooldowns Marcia is right, if they're the same type you just add them together. (But I'll check guide and ask staff chat to be sure)
I'm fine with that solution, but the rules really just don't explain how it works at all, and it pretty much explicitly forbids doubling up on stuff over tier V.
As for Odd's comment: Bindings. Can't do shit to stop someone from incanting two tier VIIs, some of which have incantations shorter than tier IVs, if your actions are restricted for a few seconds. They don't even need to get an enormous number of advantages, just enough to buy a turn.
I think the main issue here is that the double incantation is a blatant way to get around the cool down system. The way the CD system works now, you can't fire off two offensive tier VII hadou in one post. With double incant the way it is now, you can. You just get the cool downs added together, back to back. So dual casting two tier VII kidou gets you an 8 post CD (4 each). There's already a similar rule against this in the tech guide:
-- You may not make a singular technique that have multiples of a tier in it, (such as Tier VII x 3) for the Tiers VI and VII. Doing so anyway results in character death. Other Tiers are allowed multiples, but for Tier V and IV cooldown durations stacks, so a Tier IV x3 tech will result in a 3 post cooldown. Tier V multiples cannot be more than 3, and Tier IV multiples cannot be more than 5.
I think the best fix to this would be to either make it that for dual casting, you either have to use the stronger tier first if it's the same type (ex. tier VII hado and tier VI hadou) or to use the same tier, they cannot be the same class (ex. tier VII hadou and tier VII bakudo)
The rules already account for the option of multi-casting low rank stuff. 3 tier IVs have a tier VI cooldown, and stuff like that. But by the same rules, two tier VIIs -aren't a thing-. You just don't get the option to hit for that kind of damage more than once per action, and once you do that you don't get to do it again for a while.
An 8 post cooldown to oneshot people 2-3 ranks higher isn't quite sufficient, in my book; simply saying you can only do something once per thread doesn't make that once per thread technique not bullshit.
As for Odd's comment: Bindings. Can't do shit to stop someone from incanting two tier VIIs, some of which have incantations shorter than tier IVs, if your actions are restricted for a few seconds. They don't even need to get an enormous number of advantages, just enough to buy a turn.
Incorrect, Bakudo #63, Rikujokoro stops all movement of a person entirely and is instant cast. If they're incanting they cannot move meaning they cannot dodge, using this single binding will instantly stop them. Just as well, as mentioned before, a sword through the back is instant as well. Combining the two=free attacks all day long OR free double cast yourself.
Post by Blodeuwen Hirashi on Feb 18, 2016 5:37:30 GMT
I agree that it isn't like people incanting have to be sitting ducks. In canon the incanter just stands there incanting, and victim just stands there while they do it.
In much the same way that you can retaliate to an incant before it goes off, the person incanting doesn't have to just stop everything else they're doing. Hell they don't even have to shout the enchantment at the top of their lungs.
As for Odd's comment: Bindings. Can't do shit to stop someone from incanting two tier VIIs, some of which have incantations shorter than tier IVs, if your actions are restricted for a few seconds. They don't even need to get an enormous number of advantages, just enough to buy a turn.
Incorrect, Bakudo #63, Rikujokoro stops all movement of a person entirely and is instant cast. If they're incanting they cannot move meaning they cannot dodge, using this single binding will instantly stop them. Just as well, as mentioned before, a sword through the back is instant as well. Combining the two=free attacks all day long OR free double cast yourself.
Incorrect. Let me get you the tech description:
Description: Summons six thin, but wide, beams of light that slam into a target's midsection, holding them in place.
They're held in place but they can still use techniques (because to stop someone using techniques you would have to "seal" them which is not allowed except under certain circumstances). Note this is common to virtually all binds: you can't stop someone using techniques unless you seal their mastery.
Post by Kuchiki Byakuya on Feb 18, 2016 6:30:10 GMT
Please tell me how you're going to move at all when you're literally held in place. Let me give you the definition of what it means to be held in place:
v. held, hold•ing, n. v.t. 1. to have or keep in the hand; grasp: to hold someone's hand. 2. to set aside; reserve or retain: to hold a reservation. 3. to bear, sustain, or support with or as if with the hands or arms. 4. to keep in a specified state: The preacher held them spellbound. 5. to detain: The police held her for questioning. 6. to conduct; carry on: to hold a meeting. 7. to hinder; restrain: Fear held me from acting. 8. to have the ownership or use of; possess or occupy: to hold a position of authority. 9. to contain or be capable of containing: This bottle holds a quart. 10. to make accountable: We will hold you to your word. 11. to keep in the mind; believe: held certain beliefs. 12. to regard; consider: to hold a person responsible. 13. to keep forcibly: Enemy forces held the hill. 14. to point; aim: He held a gun on the prisoner. 15. to decide legally. 16. to sustain (a musical note, chord, or rest). 17. to omit, as from an order: One burger - hold the pickle. v.i. 18. to remain in a specified state: Hold still. 19. to maintain a grasp; remain fast: The clamp held. 20. to maintain one's position against opposition. 21. to agree; sympathize: She doesn't hold with new ideas. 22. to remain faithful: to hold to one's purpose. 23. to remain valid: The rule still holds. 24. to refrain; forbear (usu. used imperatively). 25. hold back, a. to restrain; check: to hold back tears. b. to hinder the advancement of. c. to refrain from giving or revealing; withhold: to hold back information. d. to refrain from participating. 26. hold down, a. to keep under control or at a low level: to hold down interest rates. b. to continue to function in: to hold down a job. 27. hold forth, to speak at great length. 28. hold oneself in, to exercise restraint. 29. hold off, a. to keep at a distance; repel. b. to postpone action; defer. 30. hold on, a. to keep a firm grip on something. b. to keep going; continue. c. to stop; halt (usu. used imperatively). d. to keep a telephone connection open. 31. hold out, a. to present; offer. b. to continue to last. c. to refuse to yield. d. to withhold something expected or due. 32. hold over, a. to keep for future consideration or action. b. to keep beyond the arranged period: to hold a movie over for an extra week. 33. hold up, a. to support; uphold. b. to delay; bring to a stop. c. to endure; persevere: I'm tired but holding up. d. to present for attention; display. e. to rob at gunpoint. n. 34. an act of holding fast with the hand or other physical means; grasp; grip: a good hold on the rope. 35. something to hold a thing by; something to grasp, esp. for support. 36. something that holds fast or supports something else. 37. an order reserving something: to put a hold on a library book. 38. a controlling force or dominating influence: to have a hold on a person. 39. a wrestler's maneuver for seizing and controlling an opponent. 40. a pause or delay. 41. a prison cell. 42. stronghold. 43. a feature on a telephone that allows voice communication to be interrupted without breaking the connection. Idioms: 1. get hold of, a. to grasp; seize. b. to communicate with by telephone. 2. on hold, a. into a state of interruption or suspension. b. into a state of being kept waiting incommunicado by a telephone hold.
From this right here it's clear to see that when someone is being held in place you cannot move anything at all and as canon as shown all kido require some sort of movement to do. And also from every single use of Rikujokoro that we've seen in the show the person has been completely unable to move in any form. Renji was the first one to be shown, Rukia is the second.
As for Yaksha's question; When you put something into a post such as you incanting if you do not state what else you're doing whilst incanting you've locked yourself into that action. If you do not state that you're actively trying to dodge whilst doing it, you aren't doing it. That's how I've seen every single fight on this site go, and nobody argues against it.
Post by Blodeuwen Hirashi on Feb 18, 2016 6:56:22 GMT
Huh that's funny because I have an example of someone crying out in frustration when they've been hit with it...
Your inane list of definitions was kind of off topic and wasn't really relevant. "held in place" means that you can't move from the place where you are. So as long as your entire body doesn't move relative to a particular reference frame (we'll say "the landscape") you are being held in place. You can literally see from the kido what the binds are. As a general rule this is what bakudo do to you.
If you can talk, you can cast kido. Simple as. Other techniques you don't necessarily even need to be able to talk to perform.
Also just because you didn't state it in the original post when you're incanting doesn't mean that if someone responds to the incant with violence that you are locked into standing there like a chump. If you commit to incanting you have to incant but it doesn't exclude you from performing other actions while you're doing it.
Post by Blodeuwen Hirashi on Feb 18, 2016 8:52:52 GMT
That is by no means true though. For example when Ukitake (or whatever his name is the guy who looks like Alistair Darling) repells Lillynette's kick he doesn't do any movement for the kido. He just speaks the word and the kido appears on the back of his hand.
Not only is it not stated anywhere in canon but you're extrapolating- just because we have seen many kido users using gestures does not mean that movement is required. Huge logical fallacy right there, come on I thought you were better than that. Furthermore that isn't the case on site at all. So it's completely irrelevant in terms of: "is this mechanic on site fair or not?" (i.e. this is the question we are asking) since in canon, people can cast two tier VIIs back to back, there's no rule against it.
Thus, if someone is casting, even if they're hit by a binding kido (or in fact any bind), they can continue to cast as long as the kido doesn't specifically have a somatic component (and as long as the bind doesn't specifically restrict them from speaking- which is an interesting topic in and of itself as technically it inadvertently counts as a mastery seal which you can technically only do by spec'ing into your own racial mastery and making a tier VII technique specifically for that purpose).
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