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Post by Blodeuwen Hirashi on Mar 25, 2017 23:16:02 GMT
BM has said in the box that Bankai Stealing Medallions won't exist on site because he can't balance it. As someone who sees plot potential in my characters' bankai (and others' bankai) being stolen I think that we should have a go and see what members think.
Modifying the base ideas provided by Mike I propose the following mechanics as a basis for the bankai medallions to work;
A Medallion is a circular device barely larger than a palm with the Vandenreich’s symbol inside. It is given only to Sternritter or, with great exception granted by His Majesty, select soldiers. Medallions are capable of stealing a Shinigami’s Bankai only when said Bankai is released. This occurs after inciting an incantation where black streams come from the Medallion, likened to the Vandenreich symbol, that grasp out at the Bankai. The incantation is: "Melt. Sea to cloud, cloud to rain, rain to fog. That with shape to that which is unseen. After our jubilation, the chalice will be turned face down!!!" In order to steal the Bankai, the Quincy's Seiren mastery has to be at least above average. The Quincy must also be the same rank or higher as the Shinigami they're stealing the Bankai from; AL Quincy however can steal banaki from AL-A shinigami if they are in a spiritual realm.
The method by which Medallions work is by stealing the manifested Zanpakutou Spirit that comes from releasing Bankai. Upon stealing, the Shinigami no longer has access to their Bankai however Zanpakutou Spirit Mastery level remains as it was beforehand, and cannot be further increased without stealing Bankai back. During this time, a Shinigami cannot communicate with their spirit due to it not being inside their Zanpakutou, however, they are still able to use Shikai.
The Quincy may access this stolen Bankai through the Medallion. When first stolen, the Seiren release mastery is changed to Zanpakuto Spirit for the Quincy and is set to Above Average. They may then learn the techniques of the Bankai through training or buying with plot points as normal; they get 1 technique to start with, capped in tier to reflect the AA mastery. However, they may never exceed Advanced mastery; this is due to the fact that stolen bankai are "noticably weaker" than the originals. The Quincy is locked out of using their Seiren while they possess the Bankai. Also, due to Bankai not operating using reishi, Quincy using stolen Bankai do not get the +1 advantage associated with being in a spiritual realm for the Bankai's techniques. Should the shinigami become hollowfied in any way, the medallions will eject the bankai, returning it to the shinigami. Should the quincy possessing the Bankai die, the Bankai will be returned to its original owner also.
So if TL;DR then;
-Quincy must be the same rank as the Shinigami they're stealing from (AL can steal from AL-A in spiritual realms) -The medallion requires an incantation similar to when Asguiaro Ebern did it -Shinigami still has the same Zan Spirit mastery and access to Shikai, they simply cannot train the mastery until the Bankai is recovered -Quincy must train the Bankai from AA and 1 tech, similar to a Shinigami who has just unlocked it -Quincy Bankai mastery caps at Advanced -Quincy are locked out of Seiren while they possess Bankai -Bankai techniques used by Quincy do not get the +1 advantage for being in a spiritual realm
I believe this is actually balanced. If anything, under the proposed system, stealing a Bankai makes the Quincy weaker than if they just had mastered Seiren/Vollstandig. Due to Quincy capping at a rank lower, and not getting the spiritual realm advantage that means that even with the +2 advantage of Bankai, shinigami with only Shikai can fight on par with a quincy using a stolen Bankai. This does not reflect the canon however it is balanced for site purposes.
The range of time that the medallions will be able to work before Urahara (or an OC? ) cooks up whatever phlebotignum to fix it can be up to mods. I just think that this was a key part of how it worked in the manga and it has potential for a lot of character development, especially for stronger shinigami who have pretty much maximized their potential.
Post by Kuchiki Byakuya on Mar 25, 2017 23:28:20 GMT
I'm against this for several reasons. While I agree it was an integral part of the Bleach Story I also felt like it was a VERY cheap way of giving the Vander's a way to just outright curbstomp the Shinigami but this isn't the reason I'm against it.
The reason I'm against it is because quite frankly it's cheap. It's a way to completely remove a large amount of the power that ALL Shinigami's have and it doesn't put any kind of restriction on how many bankai's they can have (Or at least I couldn't find any kind of limitation stated). While this does somewhat balance the medallions it does nothing for the actual Shinigami themselves, The Quincy already get a power spike by entering the realm that leaves them at a minimum on par with almost every Captain. Even Byakuya would honestly struggle against an AL because of their power boost to AL-A. While it locks them out of their release, there is nothing that stops them from using something different, this just completely removes a large amount of power from all Shinigami. On top of this the Vander's have 2 GL's and 3 ? ranks on their side compared to the 1 GL that the Shinigami have. This alone puts them at a serious advantage and while thbe ? ranks can be made AL I somehow doubt they will be given their power sets. Most of them could honestly just take the bankai's just so they could beat a shinigami without ever actually needing to use it or train it. On top of this once a Shinigami is dead they can just either abandon it or take a new one even if their is a limitation. And as we all know, Canon bankais have no tier's and thus technically make them stronger than an OC's bankai because of this. So due to that it could easily just take every canon bankai and then they'd not only have more higher ranks than the shinigami, but Bankais' that, even without an extra advantage, would still be more powerful than most others.
TL;DR While somewhat balanced, it removes a large amount of power from Shinigami and doesn't have a specified limit to how many can be taken at once/at all.
Personally, I'm all for the Bankai Medallions. The mechanics you listed sound pretty solid, but I'm looking at it as a more plot point. BM says he "can't balance it", but that's because it's not a thing that's supposed to be balanced. It's -supposed- to be OP as fuck, it's -supposed- to be broken and throw the victim for a loop. It's supposed to show the victim that they can't just rely on their Bankai, and for them to develop other means of fighting in the meantime.
So my approval sticks, as I said in the c-box convo you mentioned from the other night.
Also, when it would get reverted would be a matter of whenever Urahara (or someone else if they figure it out sooner) gets the means around to.
tl;dr: The shit's not supposed to be balanced, let's do it. PLOT!
Im 50/50 in this, i agree its a huge plot device, however, i feel it would make people even MORE scared to rp in these types of events. Lots of people dont like risk and i doubt anyone would wanna lose their bankai, even if its only temporary. Im fine with it either way, personally, but i forsee issues if it were to be done
Thought I'd just chime in here and fill everyone in on why I decided the medallions should just be removed from the site version of the war arc.
First off, if we follow the canon of the medallion as an item it is a strait nerf to shinigami, a race that is considered probably the most balanced in terms of overall site mechanics. Allow the medallions to exist, and you can be sure the number of people that want to make a shinigami will drop, and it would further encourage people to go vizard just because they want to avoid the possibility of their bankai being stolen. This goes along with Bear's comments.
Second, along with the balancing of the medallion itself, the main concern was actually the effects of the medallion within the thread it is used. For all intents and purposes it is bankai seal with the only real downside being the user must now use the opponents secondary release instead of their own. This effect is unbelievably strong, as it deprives the target of their strongest abilities along with half of the techniques attributed to the release cooldown grouping.
Third, as mentioned above in regards to following the canon, the medallions as a plot device were mainly used to establish the threat of the Wandenreich and force the shinigami to train and come up with new powers to defeat them. However, people probably forget that the whole of the quincy are takes place over only about a week, and it took Urahara a fraction of that time to develop a counter measure that made the medallions all by useless. Since our plan is to draw the quincy arc out on the site to make it the background plot for the foreseeable future, the same thing would happen in our plot, and we would have designed and balanced the medallions only to have them become a basically meaningless trinket.
To everyone. I have a method of balancing out this issue. We make this Medallion only something few people can get. You'd have to do something great to obtain one. Maybe obtain Sternritter or something, however, not even all Sternritter would have one.
Thing is, I WANT my Bankai able to be stolen. It makes the threat even more possible for this to be viable. Plus the drawbacks that Coffee has stated for Quincy to be possible to be able to be beat, even if Shinigami have bankai stolen
No longer able to obtain Advantave in Spiritual Realm nor use Volstandig, that is a massive blow to Quincny. So, yea.
I'm for this. Iif nothing else, make this OOC Permish BM. Otherwise some people will jusut find and excuse to have their bankai stolen. I'm one of them.
Post by Kuchiki Byakuya on Mar 26, 2017 13:37:15 GMT
"We make this Medallion only something few people can get."
First off, if we follow the canon of the medallion as an item it is a strait nerf to shinigami, a race that is considered probably the most balanced in terms of overall site mechanics.
Post by Blodeuwen Hirashi on Mar 26, 2017 17:01:57 GMT
Those are some excellent points BM.
Then how about we take these mechanics into consideration but require OOC consent for them? That way, the people like me and Mike who are OK with our Bankai being stolen can have the bankai stolen which still creates the same plot effect for other people. We can imagine some reason why the Urahara solution doesn't initially work and as such people only recover their bankais later?
The kido soshi, Shinji, Misato (and whoever else feels like it) and other NPC captains getting their bankais stolen will have such a huge plot impact, even if OOCly there are no fears for people, ICly people will be like "fuck my bankai could get stolen" especially since the three people named are fairly high-profile.
Post by Blodeuwen Hirashi on Mar 26, 2017 18:48:59 GMT
Fair enough but Blod and Misato are already 2 fairly substantial examples. Maybe RAIDEN SAITOU would be willing to partake too, depending on how his stuff is going, and like I said, an NPC captain could also have Bankai stolen?
Like Coffee said, this would only be fore people who OOCly want this. One reason I'm all for having my bankai stolen is because it shows how much some Shinigami rely on their Zanpakutou, however, this is why we have Specializations.
Quincy cannot gain their Advantage in Spiritual Realms nor activate Volstandig. Additionally their stolen Bankai is capped at Advanced. Considering how well a Shinigami contests against a Quincy with their chosen Specialized Mastery they should do just fine.
Would someone be capable of catching Byakuya now that he's got Specialized Stepping with Spacial Awareness Perk? I highly doubt whichever Quincy may steal his Bankai would catch him in his own Bankai. Reason being because, at least for the first fight if Byakuya doesn't get his Bankai back during, the Bankai would be to clunky against him. Byakuya said in his fight against Ichigo "you cannot evade the nimble assault of Senbanzakura."
Plus, I want this to be done against Bount. Considering how Bankai works, Bount Dolls could be stolen on the spot. However, due to them having their own personality they'd instantly rebel against the Quincy.
This is why I think allowing Medallions to become a thing could bring attention to more Quincy and possibly Bount. Which is what me as a Mod and RPer want.
Excluding special abilities/transformations such as Shunko/Vizard, Bear is correct in that Shinigami are possibly the most balanced race on site. So then perhaps another weakness onto the Medallions?
If, and this is an if guys, you were to accept something like this what would you suggest on what current limitations Coffee and I have suggested?
Post by Kuchiki Byakuya on Mar 27, 2017 22:58:37 GMT
Would someone be capable of catching Byakuya now that he's got Specialized Stepping with Spacial Awareness Perk? I highly doubt whichever Quincy may steal his Bankai would catch him in his own Bankai. Reason being because, at least for the first fight if Byakuya doesn't get his Bankai back during, the Bankai would be to clunky against him. Byakuya said in his fight against Ichigo "you cannot evade the nimble assault of Senbanzakura."
Actually regardless of Byakuya's specialized step perk, I would still be against it. If anything this perk is the exact reason I'm against it, and it isn't.
I honestly hadn't even considered that fact, the reason that I was against it is because it's just a straight up nerf to the VAST majority of all Shinigami. And, if we go by 'npc captains have theirs stolen' do you SERIOUSLY want someone stealing Urahara and Kyoraku's bankai? I don't. Even Yamamoto would honestly have a hard time against Kyoraku's bankai because of how it's designed. What about Zaraki's bankai? Or Unohana's? There are reasons that I stated that I'm against it, and none of them have anything to do with any of my characters.
I'm fully aware of the fact that Byakuya could easily evade the entirety of his own Bankai from anyone even if they had Advanced mastery with it, the fact is quite simply that nobody would be as proficient in using it as someone who's had decades of training with it. I could have honestly chosen a different spec perk and still been able to avoid Senbonzakura Kageyoshi at Advanced Mastery even if they used their hands to control it.
Post by Blodeuwen Hirashi on Mar 28, 2017 4:43:50 GMT
I honestly hadn't even considered that fact, the reason that I was against it is because it's just a straight up nerf to the VAST majority of all Shinigami.
But given that Mike and I have already conceded that it would have to be OOC consent a nerf is fine. If you don't consent to it happening, it isn't a nerf. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
And, if we go by 'npc captains have theirs stolen' do you SERIOUSLY want someone stealing Urahara and Kyoraku's bankai? I don't. Even Yamamoto would honestly have a hard time against Kyoraku's bankai because of how it's designed. What about Zaraki's bankai? Or Unohana's? There are reasons that I stated that I'm against it, and none of them have anything to do with any of my characters.
Firstly, Urahara isn't a captain so I'm not sure where you got that from. Secondly, you've cherry picked here. What about Koma, Toshiro, Sui Feng, Mayuri etc. Koma's weaksauce, I know you can beat Toshiro's bankai at advanced because I had to beat him at mastered to become Soshi, Sui Feng's is literally just a big dumb missile, and Mayuri's is a fairly potent poison yes, but in the hands of anyone but him it's nowhere near as effective (actually scatch that you can't steal Mayuri bankai).
Lieutenants ala Renji, Ikkaku, Hisagi are also potential victims.
Quite frankly I see no reason for this to be blanket banned given that there are people who want it done to their characters for plot reasons, and the huge impact it could have on the story if we made it so that Urahara could not immediately come up with the solution. It dramatically increases the IC tension. While it's a nerf for the shinigami, the mechanics are balanced for the quincy, which given that the participating shinigami will be doing it OOC willing.
I honestly hadn't even considered that fact, the reason that I was against it is because it's just a straight up nerf to the VAST majority of all Shinigami.
That's... because... THAT'S... WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE.
It's not just another technique. It is a nerf. That is straight-up what it is, what it's supposed to be. It's SUPPOSED to be a huge nerf to Shinigami who rely on Bankai. Make them think outside the box. Use other methods to fight.
I maintain my position that Bankai Medallions should be put through with the restrictions outlined by Marci and Mike, and nothing more. It's an unbalanced messy masterpiece and it should stay that way. And of course, make it OOC permission required, so if someone dun like, just opt out of it.
Some of us like a challenge.
None of my characters are it risk, but my opinion would be the same even if any or all of them were.
Post by Blodeuwen Hirashi on Mar 28, 2017 15:08:46 GMT
Furthermore I think it's important that we outline what OOC consent means in this case too.
OOC consent means you can't use the medallion on someone without their consent. It does not mean that characters are immune to the effects of them; simply that we ensure that no situation happens during RP where a medallion is used on a character who does not consent.
Post by Kuchiki Byakuya on Mar 28, 2017 20:21:48 GMT
I just feel like it's too much... But, /shrug, I guess for OOC consent to be required it's fine.
I just was never a fan of the idea of the quincy's somehow having a way to completely remove apart of someone's soul (because that's what it is) and utilizing it themselves seemingly with great ease as though they've used it their entire life. Something as massive as Byakuya's bankai isn't easy to control and he's stated so himself, same with someone like Renji's bankai. I've always felt it was a needless thing tact on to give the Quincy's more power because they couldn't actually beat the Gotei without them.
Post by Amaori Ichika on Mar 28, 2017 21:45:54 GMT
actually let's a show of hands who is participating that has bananakai and is in soul society (since bananakai stealing will be done there more likely than human world):
Now let's see who wants it to be a thing/actually happen to them: Hidane (which won't work because he's a vizard) Mike Marcia
Now for the people on the list who is against it: Hyoka Odd?
Yeah it's not much of a contribution to the discussion but I just wanted to put together a list. Personally I am against this only because I wanna use bananakai plane to ferry people around and not get fucked over for it
Also because I lose every fight and don't need these guys bringing extra spoils with them
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) cooks up whatever phlebotignum to fix it can be up to mods. I just think that this was a key part of how it worked in the manga and it has potential for a lot of character development, especially for stronger shinigami who have pretty much maximized their potential. 
) cooks up whatever phlebotignum to fix it can be up to mods. I just think that this was a key part of how it worked in the manga and it has potential for a lot of character development, especially for stronger shinigami who have pretty much maximized their potential. 
